The Pato that Laid the Golden Eggs

By Emmanuel Narokobi

Bipo Bipo tru lo wanpela lilik ples klostu long Tabubil, wanpela man na meri bin hamamas stret long wonem ol i bin gat wanpela kain special pato. Dispela pato save karim ol golden kiau long olgeta dei. Tasol tupela marit yah ol wok lo tingting planti na ol tok, “ating sopos yumi katim dispela pato na opim insait blong em bai yumi ken kisim planti moa gold” Tasol sore turu long ol, long wonem taim ol kilim pato na opim bel blong em, ol i lukim olsem pato nogat gold insait, bel blong pato i wankain tasol olsem ol narapela pato.

Tupela sore nau na sindaun stap, nogat moa gold lo hamamas nau.

Over the weekend I was super lucky to have been sent on a trip to Tabubil by a website client of mine. This involved visiting their operations and the nearby villages and as many will tell you about Tabubil, the first thing that strikes you is how clean and safe the town is. You have to understand I’m a city slicker from Port Moresby so when I was told that walking at night in certain unlit parts from my accomodation to the Golf Club was safe, I was a bit sceptical. But I thought hey I’m big and ugly enough so I’ll give it a go and anyway I have an umbrella in my hand so I can use that as a weapon if the rain doesn’t get to me first. As I walked down to the Golf Club I passed several children and women and then some white lady doing her evening walk, so I can confirm now to the whole world (and myself) that Tabubil is perhaps the safest town in PNG.

So on my first night I had some beers with the media faces of Tabubil plus one notorious AAP journalist whom I will not name. As usual the chatter at the table started with how peacful the town was, how rich the landowners were and then the PNG Sustainable Development Programme (PNGSDP) and its track record thus far. It’s no secret the grumblings in government about what they would like to do with the billion kina development fund. PNG Treasurer Peter O’Neil has been the latest critic of how slow PNGSDP has been in delivering on projects. In PNGSDP’s defence though Opposition Leader Mekere Morauta responded with the following statements:

“The Prime Minister, Treasurer and Planning Minister should be reforming the institutions that have become dysfunctional in the last eight years, the[re are] scores of institutions that are in intensive care, requiring resuscitation…Don’t kill others that are working.”
“Their real interest is getting their hands on the money, not on solving environmental issues in the Western province…and since when has the Government proved itself an efficient spender of development funds?… why should the Department of National Planning have access to PNGSDP money, when it can’t spend its own money properly?”
I do understand Peter O’Neil’s frustrations and perhaps he is right about dissatisfaction on the ground. My visits to the villages were certainly revealing. Although they were living in permanent houses with electricity and running water, I couldn’t help but wonder if they could be living 500% better than this considering the billions of US dollars that have been made from the OK Tedi mine over the last 30 years. Tabubil is a mining town controlled by OK Tedi but just outside Tabubil you can see the settlements that have been growing rapidly over the last 2 years alone and then the rest of the highway down to Kiunga which is all the same village style living that has not changed much since the mine started. I also wondered as I stared at a run down school if there would be any children from Western Province who will be educated enough to one day manage big businesses or large government bodies one day in their own Province.
Who is to blame for this lack of development in Western Province? PNGSDP is pretty much a new kid on the block, so what has the National and Provincial Government been doing all this time?  Or is it the fault of state entities managing landowner money?
Being a landowner doesn’t mean you become an instant millionire and this is something that our new landowners from the PNG LNG project need to learn. The truth is landowners don’t really have that much money and so we have all these people running around killing each other over unrealistic expectations. For example for the OK Tedi mine, the landowners interest are held in a body called Mineral Resources Star Mountain (MRSM) which is managed by Mineral Resources Development Corporation (MRDC).  MRSM’s interest in OK Tedi is only 2.5%. Now note that this 2.5% does not get to the landowners yet, it has to be invested by MRDC before dividends can then flow to the landowners. So how much money are we talking about? Well in 2005 MRSM was only worth K29.7 million and from latest reports in 2009 it is now worth about K141 million. Total dividends from all the projects and handed out by MRDC to landowner companies in 2006 was only K25.6 million. So where has all the money gone in the last 20 years?
MRDC management has seen some new blood in recent years so I have better hopes for the future of MRDC compared to its rocky past. A great example of the standard our landowner companies should be at is Petroleum Resources Kutubu (PRK), again a landowner company managed by MRDC. The late John Kapi Natto and family managed PRK and with their recent success in diversified projects like the Hekari football team and investments in blue chips like a 10% stake in Bank South Pacific, you can see why their portfoilio grew to K476.15 million in 2008.  I’d say they’d be apporaching a billion kina by now.
So it seems to me that Government has let down landowners by not bringing services into these development areas. MRDC is only an investment company, not a development fund or a government for that matter. So if the government had to tap on PNGSDP’s shoulder then what good reason would there be for PNGSDP giving government access to its funds?
The plain and simple answer is absolutely none. It was by pure accident or short sighted thinking that BHP and the National Government stumbled into the waste dumpings mess. So by the luck of the stars and planets an opportunity arose for Sir Mekere Morauta to steer BHP’s shares towards the creation of the PNGSDP. So the truth is PNGSDP is a happy accident (to a small degree). None of the National Government’s business deals, policies and laws ever allowed for the people of Western Province to prosper beyond their villages and this was despite the fact that OK Tedi still contributes to 20% of PNG’s GDP. Even MRDC did not now show any progress in the MRSM portfolio value until just recently.
So back to PNGSDP. Yes it has its grey areas, like the recent reports on its Chairman Ross Garnaut defending his Lihir mine. Yes the company is registered in Singapore, yes the board’s accountability to the people of the Western Province is  highly questionable. Not to mention that perhaps the current board is a bit old and stale and a more managers then entreprenuers with a vision. But unfortunately in PNG issues are never straight out black and white and so among the various shades of grey, one will have to go with the lighter greys. One important shade of grey that stands out to me in PNGSDP is its Governance and Transparency. You would be hard pressed asking any government development entity to be able to produce an annual report with consistent financials up to 2009. So yes PNGSDP is abit slow, but at least we know where the billions are, so we can still discuss and plan for the future. Think of it which is easier to prod and poke for change the PNG National Government or the PNGSDP board?
My belief is that PNGSDP is the only working model we have now for effectively converting financial wealth into social developmment. Why not give PNGSDP and MRDC direct equity in the projects. The National Government can then simply collect tax from all the economic activity. Why does the National Government want to get involved in day to day business? More importantly how can we trust the National Government?
In Mekere Morauta’s Contract in 2000 with Highlands Pacific, the National Governenment reserved the right to take up to 30% equity in the Ramu Nickel project once operational. However in 2006, Sir Michael Somare in his wisdom amended the agreement this time with the Chinese Metallurgical Group Corporation (MCC), to never take up that option so that we could stay with the whopping 6.3% equity.
In addition, Mekere’s contract had a two tier tax scheme to give an incentive for a developer. In 2000 the nickel price was suppressed – at about $7000 per tonne – the contract provided for a corporate tax rate of about 15% for the first 5% profit and then for all profit, after that tax would be at the normal rate of 30%.  Somare’s beautiful contract work removed that tax clause and replaced it with a 10 year tax holiday to kick in whenever MCC feels the need to be generous.  On 2000 prices we could estimate that this masterstroke “amendment” cost PNG K162 Million but now that the nickel price is about US$23,000 per tonne, the mind boggles at how much was really given away.
Further more, there is a nice transfer pricing clause in the new contract, which was not even in Mekere’s – the new clause states that the parties recognise that MCC will sell nickel to related companies in the Chinese domestic market.  Full stop.  It doesn’t say “at international market price”.  So if you are a buyer in new York who is willing to pay $23,000 per tonne and one of MCC’s brother or sister companies in China want to pay $7000 a tonne – MCC can just sell to the one in China and the parent company gets $23,000 worth of benefits per tonne for only $7000. Which all means that MCC would never have to declare a profit or tax for that matter, ever and for our measly 6.3% we will undoubtedly never get a declared dividend.
With all our new projects coming online in the next 10 years, have we or will we learn anything from the Ok Tedi experience? Why do you think Ramu Nico is having such a hard time with the landowners. Why do you think we lost Bougainville Copper Limited (BCL)? So I have to ask, with Peter O’Neil and friends sharpening their knives in the house-cook, can we afford to slice open this slow waddling pato? 

12 thoughts on “The Pato that Laid the Golden Eggs

  1. I read your comments with much interest.

    I feel the board of OkTedi Ltd should be changed very quickly and reason i say this because i do not think the men who sit on this Board have any commercial expertise whatsoever. Even worse they are all hypocrites.

    Ross Garnaut himself has come under the miscroscope by the Australian press recently for being an hypocrite , by promoting the Australia Government Climate Change programe proclaiming clean energy etc. on one hand while chairing Multi National Companies such as Lihir Gold ( Which dumps its tailing in the lihir waters) and Ok Tedi or PNGSDL ( Dumps it tailing in the Fly River).

    Ross Garnaut in his 9 years as chairman of Lihir Gold failed to declare dividend for that Company. There were good reasons for that becos the major shareholder who were providing Management to Lihir were extracting most of the juice via that channel. I as a smlll PNG retail investor got sick OF it after 6 years i off loaded my interest and walk away vowing never to invest in any company that Ross Garnaut heads up.

    Ross Garnaut is an academic and not a professional company Director and that is why most public companies in Australian and overseas will have no such guy to chair their company except we in PNG.

    I want this guy to go, together his other Board members on PNGSPD Ltd and Ok Tedi Ltd. Let BHP appoint more savey and practical professions to run these companies for PNG.

  2. More excitement on the western front:

    PAPUA New Guinea villagers are angry their government has allocated more than a million hectares of pristine forest for “special agricultural leases” – which they describe as a land grab for logging.

    At a landowner meeting in Kiunga, Western Province this week, hundreds of disgruntled villagers said their land had been given away without any informed consent or notification.

    Western Province now has half of PNG’s allocated 4.3 million hectares of “Special Purpose Agricultural and Business Leases”, after the government gazetted Tosigiba Timber group and North East Timber 1.25 million hectares on September 23 this year.

    Last year, the government allocated 853,420ha to companies in the Western Province for special leases in areas such as the contentious Kamula Doso forest that has a court order preventing any forestry activity.
    PNG’s build-up of “special leases” has enraged green groups, NGOs and numerous government officials who contacted AAP to raise their concerns that PNG’s forests were under threat by oil palm or “logging by stealth”.
    Western Province’s North Fly MP Boka Kondra, who addressed the landowners on Wednesday, told AAP it was a grave concern.

    “They are giving away the land but we don’t know what the future use is or the implications,” he said.

    “It is a surprise to see this, I will talk to the ministers concerned to find a possible solution because a lot of people on their land will see this as taking it away.”

    Western Province Land and Resource Owner federation Chairman, Paul Katut, said landowners had been duped.

    “Its unprecedented the government gives one million hectares,” he said.
    “We have members of the companies here that all say they didn’t agree to the deal.”

    PNG’s Lands Department grants the “special leases” to companies to build, for example, oil palm farms, but in the past unscrupulous players have used the leases to bypass laws and cut down the forest, export the logs, and then leave.

    Greenpeace forest and climate campaigner Paul Winn said increasing special leases was another example of PNG’s disregard for its purported climate change policy and indigenous people’s rights.

    “These leases will never result in agricultural benefits to PNG they are just a way of sidestepping the logging laws,” he said.

    PNG Agriculture Minister John Hickey did not return AAP’s calls, and the Lands Department could not be contacted for comment.

  3. Well written Emmanuel.

    It seems the current government is bent on reversing the important institutional reforms which Sir Mekere’s government worked so hard to establish in less than 2 years. Sir Mekere effectively shut the doors on the politicians’ itchy fingers on our important institutions of state including quasi government bodies such as PNGSDP. And the results are quite revealing especially with NasFund’s success story. Why are we even contemplating going back to a model that has failed us?

    I think PNGSDP’s slow progress in delivery is due to the company having to fulfil both a commercial as well as a social mandate. It is not always easy to deliver in an organisation that has such dual and opposing mandates, but I think they could do better with the amount of money they are sitting on.

    And the mess with Ramu Nico angers me. If this company exercises its transfer pricing privileges, then it’s goodnight PNG. Switch off the lights and let’s crawl back into the caves because there will be nothing in it for us.

  4. just like to said happy Christmas and years,

    Just a up date on the MRDC landCo fund is around about 2 Billion bank now. and new comers Petromin about 700 million in the bank….


  5. Who is to blame for this lack of development in Western Province?
    Not OTML. They are to thank for most the development! Though they had no obligation… as it is the Fly river provincial government who is wholly responsible for service delivery (ha!) in the province.
    There is only so much OTML can do however. they are a mining company after all….

    PNGSDP is pretty much a new kid on the block, so what has the National and Provincial Government been doing all this time?
    PNGSDP is not “the new kid on the block” it has been around since 2002. 8 years and pretty much squat has been done in WP of any meaning yet. FRPG just argues with them about “NO, COMMUNICATIONS TOWERS WERE OUR IDEA WERE DOING IT” so PNGSDP puts their hands up and says ‘fine, whatever’, and then nothing gets done by anyone.
    FRPG has been blowing money on ghost projects and getting mad at OTML, blaming them for every ill in the province. FRPG has ceded responsibility to OTML in North Fly, with very little presence or interest in the area. As for the national government they just enjoy the dividends.

    Or is it the fault of state entities managing landowner money?
    there are fundamental problems in the way in which the landowner trusts are administered and it has nothing to do with how they are managed. It relates to cash payments and how they are abused. People in the mine villages are lazy and stupid, and it is all their own doing. They don’t send their children to the FREE otml schools. They spend all their money on drugs, alcohol, gambling and other dumb stuff. They eat appallingly (relying instead on high fat high calorie store bought rubbish and dont grow their own food anymore. they dont think of the future at all. they think the mine is going to be there forever and it is not! OTDF has a horrible time trying to get food security/agriculture programs off the ground in the communities, but the people just dont care. thats why theres no development. you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink!

  6. Who is to blame indeed? Could it just be human nature that seems to be always ready to take the easiest option? Might it be the greedy who seem to appear out of nowhere and be able to spiv the less aware while pocketing what they can get away with? Is it the lazy that always seem to be able to blame others for their own circumstances?

    The age old question appears to be: ‘Why doesn’t ‘somebody’ do ‘something about the situation but it seems ’nobody’ apparently does anything?’ In Oz, this has been referred to, somewhat tongue in cheek, as the ‘Aorta solution’.

    You know: ‘Aorta do this an’ aorta do that!’

    Yet specifically, who are ‘they’?

    There’s an old saying: ‘Don’t ask what can I do? Seek understanding and then you’ll know what to do.’

    So how do people find an understanding of this situation and therefore some answers to these problems? The issues are not new and have happened many times before. We know that human societies have grappled with them since recorded history.

    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edmund Burke 1729-1797

    So where are all the good people who think things should be better and why aren’t they ‘combining’? How many people in PNG have actually come out and supported the few political leaders who have publically put their careers on the line for their people? Where was the spontaneous public support for example, when he has on numerous occasions, MP Sam Basil stood up and defended the rights of the PNG people?

    Who has actually written to their present member and made their point of view known? Who has written to Mr Basil and congratulated him of his heroic stand against despotism?

    This blog is an excellent start but just discussing a problem is only the first step. ‘Actions speak louder than words’.

    Either the good ‘associate’ or else they will fall……..

  7. Emmanuel,

    Thank you for a good article which raises many of the issues of relevance today. I deal with PNGSDPL a lot and have observed their operations over the years since BHP decided to set it up. Let me set the record straight and allow young readers to understand the background of this Holding company and what it has effectively achieved, or not achieved.

    Firstly, PNGSDPL was not Mekere”s idea. It was the idea of Paul Anderson the American CEO of BHP Billiton at that time. The decision to dump Ok Tedi on the government of PNG and run was driven by austerity factors driven at Board level of BHP. In simple terms BHP made the assessment that to clean up the Environmental Damage of Fly River systems and delta would cost minimum USD$40 Billion. Waging that against the mine reserves, BHP did a cut and run deal with Mekere. Pius Wingti did the actual deal with the BHP Chairman in Cairns. No one knows if any money changed hands.

    The upshot was Mekere got the go to man in Chris Haiveta as newly appointed Mining Minister to get the Landowners to agree and sign off on the deal. The deal Mekere did was to let BHP off the hook for environmental degradation. No one knows what Pius arranged for Mek and the PDM boys back then, because that was an awfully huge deal by anyone’s standard, white or black. No one gives anyone legal and commercial cut blanche indemnity like that. But yes, thats exactly what Mekere did, knowing very well that it would enable BHP share price to rise, and BHP would obtain the green tick it was desperate for Environmentally conscious company. That month BHP shares rose by well over AUD$10.00. Everyone made money.

    BHP since shedding Ok Tedi has grown from strength to strength. For Mekere, it was the most stupid commercial deal any body could make. He not only gave BHP the golden farewell, but he took the Agreement BHP Lawyers drafted and put it into law, so that even poor Western Province people aggrieved by the environmental damage couldn’t sue to enforce their rights. Thats how good Mekere was. No, hang on, one more thing. Mekere legislated to allow BHP to create a ridiculous trust arrangement to park dividends from Ok Tedi in a trust entity that BHP and the Australian government ( through the Board/Trustees of PNGSDPL) controlled.

    Now wait a minute, what just happened? Did Mekere really do that? Hang on…

    Q: where is the mine?

    Q:Who owns the mine?
    A:PNG government ( after BHP handed its shares back)

    Q: If PNG government owns the mine, when dividends are declared, which OTML does, dont the funds take the character and nature of public funds?
    A: Yes, they are public funds upon declaration of dividends.

    Q: If they are public funds, arent they subject to the Public Finance Management Act?
    A: Yes, they should be. So why has Mekere allowed these funds, dividends from a mine owned by PNG to be controlled by BHP and its cohorts?

    Q: Is it because Mekere does not trust PNGians, he only trusts the white expatriates?
    A: Something like that…it was part of the deal Mekere and Pius did with BHP Chairman, so that BHP could have its golden egg and eat it too, and even eat the pato too!

    It is better that way, the whitemen are more transparent than you PNGians anyway.

    Today, the Board and management fly everywhere FIRST CLASS, meeting luxurious locations, nice Luxury Hotels paying no less than K1000 per night accommodation only, produce nice videos that they play at their reception of how they are spending the money, publish posh colour brochures showing people living and suffering in poverty in Western Province.

    Their financial accountability is impeccable, they speak at length about transparency and governance ( but sorry they don’t really show those contracts and consultancies the Board gives to their mates, nor their huge Board Fees & bonuses). They don’t allow the Auditor general to audit them in accordance with Public Finance Management Act.

    The money is nicely parked in London and Singapore, available there to make other countries rich, while the people of Western province sink deeper and deeper into the mud and sludge of tailings from Ok tedi. During the French Revolution, the Parisian Aristocracy in their drunken orgies used to call out for the poor peasants starving on the streets…”LET THEM EAT CAKE!”. Now Mekere, go tell the Ok Tedi and Fly River people, the Bamus and the Gogodalas, the villages on the coastal reaches and the Fly Delta( who have suffered endlessly), TO GO AND EAT CAKE!

    Sadly, PNGSDPL is the result of the artful manipulation of the Mekere government by both BHP and the Australian government. Mekere said we will steal the public moneys so he rather have Australians keep and control it, no wonder he has a nice place in Brisbane to go to when he retires. PNGSDPL as a company has been empire building. If you compare its administrative expenses to its development budget, over the years, its operating expenses swamp its development budget. In other words they look after themselves. Whatever, little they have done is a drop in the ocean compared to what they could have done.

    The Board is out of touch with the realities of our people. PNGSDPL competes with and works against our governments developmental plans, MTDS and Vision 2050. It is running as a separate government within a government- only this time it is run by unelected and un-mandated Board using public funds dubiously acquired under dubious legislative arrangements. PNGSDPL under Robert Igara was like a pre-school class. He called the roll every morning and if you were not there, you were punished. He held everyone, mostly First Class educated PNG elites under the threat of a knife to their throat, so to speak.

    There were more Heart attacks of PNG National Managers in PNGSDPL than any other organisation in PNG under Igara. Under Igara no project was done- except PNG Micro-Bank, which was someone elses idea and all the Board did was to sign a cheque over with BSP managing it. Nothing has improved under David Sode, who is skillfil at playing the politicians and his Board- that is a full time job managing them. Apart from K10 Million- K20 Million valued Projects a year PNGSDP cannot justify its existence nor its expenses bill. Whilst we understand its origins are dubious, but a good team should have used the funds to create an investment powerhouse in the country.

    Instead, they treat it like a public service organisation. To start with David Sode lacks commerciality. He is too frightened of his Board and the politicians, forever running around trying to please everyone. The Board ( to echo Luke Kembol) needs to be sacked en-masse. We need people who are entreprenual as well as hardnosed business minded, creatve, and have compassion for our people. WE WILL NOT TOLERATE EXPATS ACADEMICS, WORLD BANK CONSULTANTS AND EX_POLLIES WHO DONT LIVE IN PNG AND WHO DONT HAVE A STAKE IN THE COUNTRYS FUTURE TO TREAT THIS AS THEIR RETIREMENT PACKAGE. With great respect to them ( and they know who they are,) pls retire, resign and move on.

    PNGSDPL set up the trust in Singapore, and the legislation needs to be reviewed, and commercial people need to be put on the Board with a clear financial expenditure plan for social and economic development.

    PNGSDPL needs to be the catalyst for economic development. We will not and must not allow Australia to hold on to our funds while our people suffer. Our people need real education and health services and real economic development. We cannot eat or drink transparency on the mudflats of the Fly River, while our funds are making some European rich in London or Asian rich in Singapore.

    Mekere you created this monster, will you be man enough to admit your mistake and give back to the country these public funds today totaling over USD$1 Billion.

    Dont you think the people of Western Province deserve a bit more than you and Pius gave them- a dead river! Apart from Nauru in the 1960s parking its phosphate funds in Australia and London ( which the British and Australians pilfered), no other country has done what you have designed for us.

    Need I go further and reveal how you and Pius conspired and stole Orogen Minerals from the people of PNG and gave it to your mate Trevor Kennedy’s oil Search? You read the KPMG deal evaluation Report describing it as daylight robbery, but you still proceeded. Why? So how much was the pay out? C’mon, you can tell us. We wont tell anyone. Orogen had over $70 Million cash in its coffers that the starving and dying Oil Search grabbed. How about PNGBC? We know your mates, we know how the deals were done.

    But enough of this. We in PNG must stop all this witch hunting and corruption talk. Corruption exists in Australia on a bigger scale than in PNG. We are all human and as long as we are on earth, we are likely to fall prey to our lower nature. The most important thing is that we must learn from these dubious arrangements of the past and go forward with a clear mind and clear systems that safeguard against corruption.

    Everyone one must put the National Interest First. At the moment PNGSDPL is not serving the National Interest. It is a dismal failure. It must be dismantled and reorganized. Its holding public funds and dealing with public funds when it has no mandate and accountability under the Public Finance Management Act. It is an illegal operation.

    1. @TheNationalinterest

      Thanks for the background info and yes I totally agree with your perceptions of PNGSDP being run like a Public Service Organisation. I know they want to do the right thing with Corporate Governance etc etc but as an investment vehicle they have not produced enough sustainable businesses yet.

      To put it quite bluntly, they need a CEO with some balls to make some big hard decisions.

      An example would be like how Noreo Beangke and his board decided that BSP could buy out PNGBC when they were a smaller bank. Whether it has been right or wrong this has now resulted in a regional pacific bank that was born in PNG. If not we would have been stuck in the dark ages with a Govt run bank.

      Another example is the Lihir resource owners Anitua Group (formerly the Lakaka Group of Companies). From 1989 to 2008 they were doing okay but by 2008 they had become quite dysfunctional. But in the last 3 years alone under new professional management The Anitua Group now comprises of numerous businesses – including contract mining, security, property, construction, camp management & camp services, retail, investment, logistics, farms and drilling. The Anitua Group also employs over 1500 people on Lihir Island, with another 1000 people employed throughout PNG.

      Anitua achieved all this within 3 years alone because the main purpose was to create sustainable businesses for Lihirians before the Lihir Gold mine closed, its purpose was not about the effective delivery of goods and services like PNGSDP is doing.

      Western Power would perhaps be the only business I think that is worth the investment as investments in utilities like that are important and will obviously make big money. But things like buying one light aircraft and giving it to Mission Aviation Fellowship is a waste of time. Hell buyout PNG Airlines or take a major stake in the company so that you can keep rural flights alive.

      On another note I don’t think however that PNGSDP’s funds should be treated or be accessible by the Government. It needs to be treated entirely as a holding company for the people of Western Province. It should be seen more as a resource owner company.

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